Crimson Red Sports

I saw a show the other day that presented a theory that the fatal head shot actually came from an AR15 that accidentally went off in the Secret Service car behind JFK.  It seemed like a plausible theory that explained a lot of the odd stuff.  For example, there were numerous witnesses at street level that smelled gunpowder.  You would not have smelled gunpowder from the 6th floor of the book depository that was upwind from where the president was shot.  Also, I have always wondered about the way the ammunition behaved.  The one bullet went through JFK, into the governor, and then back into the governors leg without fragmenting.  This was a full metal jacket round designed for warfare so that it goes through the soldier and wounds them, but gives them the opportunity to survive and be removed from the battlefield.  However the bullet used for the head shot was a hollow point round designed to fragment and cause maximum damage/fatality.

It pretty much explained away all of the issues I had with the official story.  The only thing I wonder about now is whether or not the head shot was accidental or intentional.  It seems highly unlikely that an accidental shot would just so happen to hit JFK in the back of the head and blow his head off.

I have always been fascinated by the JFK assassination. I don't know if we will ever know for 100% positive what happened that day. I have always questioned the shot coming from 6th floor of the book depository. The bullet entry and exit and still hitting Governor Connally in the front seat does not seem likely.

Interesting theory that the shot may have come from a Secret Service car. I don't buy the shot being accidental. Maybe it was an inside job?

I know I am old, because I remember what we was doing on that morning. We were killing hogs and making up the meat for the smoke house. I never believed the shot was from the 6th floor cause Oswald didn't appear to me to be such a sharpshooter with a rifle. I always think that if the shot came from above at a angle it would have Jackie too. RTR!

I never believed the "official" account. There are just too many alarm bells such as Oswald's ability to hit a moving target at a long distance with an inaccurate rifle; Oswald's connection to the Soviet Union; Kennedy's "feud" with the mob; etc.

There is a picture with a Secret Service agent holding the AR15 and several witnesses saw him holding it up.  The fact that there was an AR15 in that vehicle is not disputed.  The agent even testified that he grabbed the gun and held it up to be ready to shoot back.  Some witnesses said they thought the agent did shoot back.  If it was an accident though, it seems like a 1 in a billion accident.

(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r320/smoothsailing_02/AR-15_zpsedbf1ae2.jpg)

Lots of oddball bits of information about the assassination.

But look at that picture (above).  How would an accidental discharge hit the car ahead without going through the windshield, unless the agent were standing?  The windshield was not broken, and it would be unlikely that the agent was standing with the weapon directed forward.

 :tinfoil: Unless it was no accidental discharge!!   :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

I saw the show, too. A lot of good information. They actually proved that Oswald fired at least one of the shots. They found 3 shell casings at the spot he fired the shots in the Book Depository. One of the shell casings was supposedly a dummy kept in the chamber to keep out dirt and grit. The belief is that he fired two of the three shots.

Where I have trouble, is the fact that at least 11 people saw Agent Hickey with the AR-15, but not one of them saw it fired.

There is no doubt that at least 2 different types of bullets entered Kennedy. Whether it was Hickey, intentionally or unintentionally, or someone else altogether, there is no doubt in my mind that there was a second shooter.

The show aired on "Reelz". If you didn't catch it the first time, they tend to repeat their shows often. Do yourself a favor and watch it.

He did stand up and look around after the shots were fired.  I believe that you can see him standing in the Zapruder film.  The Bronson film supposedly shows him at the time of the fatal headshot and he clearly is not pointing the gun toward the president.  I watched that film but I honestly couldn't even make out which car had JFK or when the shots occurred.

So it seems there is credible evidence that it wasn't this particular agent.  However the evidence of a second shooter is pretty solid in my opinion.  The entry wound from Oswald's shot was 7mm, the correct size for the 6.5mm full metal jacket round that was ballistically proven to have come from his rifle.  The entry wound in the skull was 6mm and could not have possibly have come from Oswald's rifle.  I did some research last night and determined that an AR15 has about a 5.5mm bullet.

I remember that day I was 5 years old in Kindergarten. An Adult broke into the Class and told the teacher that The President had just been shot. They sent us home from school and I cried all the way home.

6th grade for me. They sent us home, too.

I went to Dealey Plaza and the Book Repository (aka The Sixth Floor Museum) last year when I was in Dallas for the Michigan game.  Very interesting stuff.  You get a self-guided audio tour through The Sixth Floor Museum; that is, they give you a headset and it guides you around to all the exhibits.  I'd love to go back when it's less crowded (tons of game day folks were there) when I could spend more time at the forensics/physics stations.  The area/window where Oswald took the shots is sealed off in a "glass room" in the same configuration (boxes piled around and such) as it was the day of the shooting.

A couple things I was suprised about - they have X's on the street marking the spots where President Kennedy was shot.  Seemed a little morbid.  The other thing...the shot wasn't nearly as far as I expected and the way the street snakes around just before that point meant that the car was going VERY slow.  It was the perfect spot to execute the shooting.

Oh, and Jackie's audio (that you hear on the museum tape) said, "They've shot Jack; they've shot Jack!"....the way she said it strikes me that she had specific folks in mind who were "they."

1st grade. They sent us home too.

You guys are young; junior high for me.
They didn't send us home. 
I got in a fight on the bus that afternoon: 1 punch, I won.

Was the fight JFK related?  Somebody being disrespectful?

I wasn't born yet.  8)

The guy made a derogatory comment about Kennedy, and our preacher's daughter started crying.
So I punched the guy.  TRUE.  The guy's a lawyer in Virginia now.
 
Maybe I should have hit him twice!   :dunno:

And harder.  :lol:

:lol:

:lol:

Well I hope you knocked some sense into him at least.  :lol:

Joking aside, I was in school with him through high school.  We never had another cross word.
He was a genius; scored 35 on the ACT (back then nobody did that).  He got a full scholarship to University of Virginia.

The preacher's daughter went to Alabama.  Wonderful person!

well, I guess I'm the real "old timer" on here.

I was in my senior year at Bama.

Was in Gorgas Library working on a term paper.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!  :clap:  :lol2:

Probably the only news that can compare in my lifetime was 9/11.  I was in Rodgers Library (Science & Engineering library at Bama) studying for a test.

I wasn't born yet (1975), but I hear stories all the time about that day. Personally, I was convinced for many years that it was all Oswalt and that everybody else was just  :tinfoil:  . That is the historian in me; I want the evidence and not just hearsay.

However, some of this evidence I have heard and seen of late has got me to re-think my position on the idea of a second shooter and other conspiracies that seem to surround Nov. 22, 1963. I think it was pmull who said we will probably never know everything surrounding the assassination, and I agree completely. Probably several people still around that don't WANT it to be known.

Thinking about this, though, also had me thinking that it seems that every generation has that "Where were you at" moment (or multiple ones). I know for me, I will be telling my son my earliest of those moments, when Reagan was shot. Then when Bear died, the Challenger disaster, and, of course, 9/11

Reagan: Driving in my car in Montgomery.

Bear: At a friend's apt in Ft. Pierce, Fl. I cried. Our friend asked Mrs. 2 if that was my dad or something. Mrs. 2 said "Might as well have been".

Challenger: Driving in my car in Montgomery in front of Eastdale Mall.

9/11: At work, worried to death because Breddy had just started school at NYU and was unable to communicate with us for 3 hours.

Obviously, the last one was more personal.

I shouted out, Who killed the Kennedy's? When after all It was you and me  :dunno:

ok , enough Rolling Stones  :lol2:

I was on the baseball field at school when we got the news
the game stopped instantly ...

the mafia , mad about Cuba , Jack Ruby got orders from New Orleans ?   :dunno:

Great thread.  I have enjoyed reading to this point. 

I was born in 79, so obviously I was swimming at the time of the assassination. 

I have been fascinated by this since I was a child.  I have always believed there was more to the story.  From Jackie saying "They've shot Jack" to the single bullet theory; none of it added up in my head.  I have no theory, but I can say that to pull something of this magnitude off, you would have had to had cooperation from the military, the CIA, the top levels of government, the most powerful business men at the time, and the mafia(yes the mafia; only the military, CIA, and the government were more powerful at the time).  I don't think we will ever find out the truth, but its very intriguing to think about.

Good to see you post over here, NJ.  :toast4:

If the show comes on again, either watch it or DVR it. It really is very interesting.

 :-\ :-\
The quote about "They shot Jack" is not a surprise.
The confusion comes from the misquote (it wasn't Jackie) and taking it out of context.  
(Texas) Gov. John Connally's wife had addressed the President just before the first shot.  Here is her testimony at the inquiry:


http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/conn_n.htm

:toast4:

If you see it listed, please shoot me a pm.

So you're saying that Jackie didn't say "They've shot Jack?"

The story of her saying that came from Jim Marrs (wrote a conspiracy book about JFK), who was interviewed during the late 1980s.  Maybe he was right, but more likely his source heard Mrs. Connally say it.  Nobody knows for sure now.

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter7%3Amorepiecesofthepuzzle

The "official" museum credits it to Mrs. Kennedy, and I've seen other eye witness accounts that credit it to her.  Although after this much time it's hard to tell what's true recollection and what's been fabricated in people's minds.  Memory is a funny thing.

True, memories vary.
But the issue here is the term "THEY".  The context of that was in reference to the conversation taking place (pacle) in the car at the time of the first shot.  Mrs. Connally was saying that 'Dallas loves Kennedy', in reference to the large turnout and success of the campaign there.  When shots rang out, it followed that the statement was in reference to "them" (people of Dallas).  That's what I understood from it, and why I don't think it had anything at all to do with Mrs. Kennedy or Gov. Connally acknowledging a conspiracy or seeing multiple gunmen.  The testimony they gave afterward said they were confused by the shots, the direction of the shots, and the number fired.  Mrs. Connally even said she didn't remember hearing but 2 shots.  She called the 2nd and 3rd shots both "the second shot".  Not surprising.

Bottom line: There were plenty of people happy to see JFK out of office (Hoover, Castro, Cuban Americans who supported the Bay of Pigs invasion, Khrushchev, some mafia folks, and Lee Oswald).  Lee Oswald was there, owned the rifle, and had motive.  He hated the CIA and FBI, and didn't trust anyone in government.  Whether anyone else was involved besides him, we'll never know.

Like someone said when the USSR collapsed:  "I'd like to get into the KGB computers and enter 'Oswald' to see what comes up."

CBS Sunday Morning is airing a thorough story about JFK. 
NOW, TODAY!

that is one of my favs to watch on Sunday's
sometimes it is pretty good 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/734665661/sunday-morning-icon.jpg)

ESPN (or one of the ESPN family) was also airing a story about the NFL's decision to play the following Sunday, and a little about the nation's reaction to Dallas and its people, including the Cowboys.  Lots of interviews and stories (including Lee Roy Jordan).

The show was quite good this morning. Well done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxwlyvCBqAk

I just watched this video on the National Geographic Channel.  It's excellent.

If nothing else, watch between min 25:00 - 26:00 (The Magic Bullet).

I've seen a couple of different shows that prove that a single bullet could have hit both men in the exact locations where their injuries occurred, without any sort of "magic" trajectory.  I've been convinced of that for a while.

The thing that has me intrigued now though is the fact that the headshot bullet was a hollow point round that exploded on impact while the bullet that passed through both of them was a full metal jacket round that was designed to go through people without exploding.  I suppose it is possible that Oswald used two different kinds of ammunition, but it seems strange at the very least.  Also, the entry wound in JFK's head was too small for Oswald's rifle, but we are talking millimeters here.  It is hard to know if the autopsy measurements were that accurate, but if they are, there is no doubt a second gun was involved.  Did Oswald have two guns?  Not likely.  If we could track down convincing evidence that the entry wound measurement in the back of the skull is accurate, then that would be huge.  Did they use some sort of caliper, or did they just stick a metal ruler up there and eyeball it?  I want to know the margin of error for the entry wound measurement.

I've never seen anything supporting the hollow-point bullet hypothesis, other than the implication that a hollow point might have caused a larger exit wound.  The shell casings and everything else about Oswald indicated that he used the same ammunition for all 3 shots.  People in the room below Oswald (watching out the windows) reported hearing the 3 shots, then hearing the casings hit the floor above them.

The details for the autopsy have always confounded people.  I do not know the details well, but it was my understanding that someone (physician?) rushed to prepare the body for transport from Dallas.  Recall, LBJ and Mrs. Kennedy insisted on waiting for the body before they left Dallas, while the Secret Service was rushing for everyone to board Air Force One asap.  Time was short and everyone in a hurry to get LBJ affirmed as President, and get him out of Dallas (away from any further threat).  I'd heard that JFK's brain, or what was left of it, was removed in Dallas.  They awaited a casket, then rushed the body aboard AF1 as soon as it arrived.  

The physicians may have affected the bullet-entry wound during their emergency surgery.  The scalp was pulled away, etc.  The autopsy in Washington DC was apparently rushed also, and inadequately performed considering the circumstances.  Beyond that, I'd enjoy knowing more too.

edit: I found this autopsy-conspiracy video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2y7MGtleKY

News story this morning about the plans in Dallas for the 50th anniversary.  They're cleaning up the area where the assassination occurred, and removed the "X" on the street that marked the spot where the kill shot occurred.

Apparently it was put there by "vendors" (tour guides?).

Hard to believe it's been 50 years.

I was very surprised to see that 'X' when I was there.

Wow, that 50 years is hard to believe. Although it is dead on. I remember what I was doing on that same day. RTR!

OMG, there was an interview on CBS Evening News tonight with the only surviving Secret Service Agent from the JFK assassination.  He was the one who climbed onto the limousine after the shooting (as it began racing away).  He said Mrs Kennedy wasn't climbing back toward him to help him; she was gathering a handful of brain tissue that had been blown onto the car.  She told him she had it, then said (according to him): "Oh Jack, what have they done to you?"

Very dramatic.  I'll see if I can find the video.   :(

I saw it too. Holy cow!!!

Here:

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/savannah-guthries-journey-with-jackie-kennedys-secret-service-agent_b204029

 :( :(

(http://lisawallerrogers.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/jackie-kennedy-climbs-out-the-back-of-the-limo.png)

50 years today.

Gruesome reality of an assassination:
(http://www.near-death.com/images/people/politicians/lincoln/assassination/kennedy_head_shot_animated.gif)
Watch the driver.  He saw Kennedy get hit.  Nobody had to tell him to "drive to a hospital".

JFK Remembered: Joe Namath
The former New York Jets Super Bowl-winning quarterback reflects on the 50-year anniversary of the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy:

“I know exactly where I was and exactly how I felt, and who I shared it with. I was a junior at Alabama, in my dorm room, catching a nap before practice. A buddy of mine from Youngstown, Ohio, Frank Cicatiello, came in and woke me up and told me President Kennedy had been shot. I wasn’t even standing up yet. I got up and there was confusion in the dorm, not believing it could actually happen.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/jets/post/_/id/31613/jfk-remembered-joe-namath

I knew why the First Lady climbed onto the back of the car.  Still, that video is very hard to watch.

Yea HL, I still don't want to see it. I remember what I was doing and I am sure most anybody who was old enough to understand would know where they were. This was a sad day in America, but I never believed Lee Harvey Oswald ever shot JFK. It took more planning than what he had brains to do. RTR!