The Great Immigration Debate

[Marshal Dillon]

I have no axe to grind with the country.  Only its narrow minded fools on both sides of the aisles.

I am not familiar with La RAZA or its propaganda, but I have taken the time to educate myself and experience life for what it is.  

Looking at life through a coke straw doesn't give you the perspective to make any informed opinion.

You know nothing about me, but your failure to see my comments as the middle ground approach toward creating real change that they were says a lot about you.

I am not embarrassed of my citizenship and genuinely take offense to that as I am willing to bet that I have done more to honor that citizenship than you...without going so far as to guarantee it, as like you of me, I don't know you or your history.  

But, I am disappointed with those within it that are so narrow minded as to take such a strong stance on what is nothing more than a new racial agenda as opposed to addressing the root of the problem and dealing with it directly.  But, like I said, it is much easier to create strong feelings of division than to face real issues.

Sorry if you fit that category, but I'd thank you to not challenge my patriotism nor sense of obligation and gratitude to our nation as I am certain you wouldn't do it to my face...at least not more than once.

Ah yes, the old "racial or racist encitememt" when your ilk can't win an argument. I was waiting for that and really was interested to see if you woud stoop so low. Well, you didn't disappoint. By the way, did I mention I am MARRIED to an Hispanic and we have a teenage son. What a pathetic and sorry attempt at smearing someone and trying to shut me up. Also, I'm really impressed with your statement of manhood and subtle threat about me saying something to your face.  I wouldn't hesitate one second to say the same thing to your face, tough guy. This is America, not Mexico, we settle our disputes at the ballot box, in case you didn't know that.

[che boludo]

It sounds like a lot of you have thought about this issue quite a bit.  It is a tough problem.  How do we solve it?

Here are some of my random thoughts, in no particular order:

1.  We have to secure the border.  This has nothing to do with immigration, but national security.  The fact that is so easy for people to cross the border at will is a big concern. RESPONSE: Securing the border is like trying to catch air.  The border with Mexico is a much smaller threat for the opening of true terrorist threats than that with Canada.  Plus, a visa apllication and proper recruitment of the terrorist gains free entry into any are of the US, so what are we accomplishing other than a large expense for little gain.

2.  Once the border is secure, it seems like we need more legal immigration.  Their is obviously a demand for more LEGAL immigration than what we have right now.  I don't see why we have to arbitrarily limit the number of people who can come into the country legally to such a low number and force so many to come here illegally.  The economy needs them and they want to come here.  Let's do it the right way.  RESPONSE: Foster more cross-border work share initiatives that make it easier for migrant workers to come and go.  This would encourage them to file for legal participation in work programs without fear of being taxed whereby they would be subject to some payroll taxes, but could still be employed at under minimum wage due to their national status which continues to help national pricing indicies.
3.  Any sort of drug activity should result in immediate deportation.  Traffic tickets should be nothing more than a fine like any other citizen would pay.  I guess the point here is if they do something that results in a prison sentence, send them back instead of putting them in jail here. RESPONSE: I prefer to have them jailed here then deported to ensure they are punished by the same laws that convicted them.  Then deport them with significant ramifications if they return to the US (minimum sentence of 10+ years).

4.  Any foreign national who serves in the military and is discharged honorably should be offered immediate citizenship for them and their immediate family. RESPONSE: They have these options, but they should be fast tracked into the system and immediate family members as well.  Especially those of service memebrs that die in the service of our nation

5.  What do we do with those who are here already?  On the one hand, I don't want them to be rewarded for coming in illegally when there are people who have been waiting in line for years to come in the legal way.  But you can't just send them home either.  I can't blame a single one of them for coming here.  I would do the same thing, I just happened to be blessed by being born in Alabama.  It is silly to say we can't take them all, they are already here.  If we opened up immigration so that we had the same number of official visas as we currently have people here illegally, and then start issuing them to people already on the waiting list, I think most of them will go back and get in line as fast as possible.  If the number of spots is high enough, then we will be able to take them all back the right way, and the issue would be settled.  Maybe the last 10% or 20% of them end up having to wait in line for a few years.  Our government is to blame here.  It is the governments responsibility to secure the border and have a sound immigration policy.  If we don't, then we can't really blame the guys who came here to try and make a better life for themselves, knowing the government would look the other way.  I will also tell you this:  I know of one local factory that put up billboards in Mexico telling people when the got across the border to come to them and they would give them a job.  Can you really blame the immigrants for coming? RESPONSE: Offer them the same rights to becoming a citizen as anyone else.  They will be subject to the same checks as anyone else.  If they are willing to follow the procedures and not have the fear of being numbered and thrown out.  They will be willing to come forward.  However, if the social policies were changed to be more strict, and we , as a nation, moved back to the forefront of technology and education, our wealth generation and job creation would make the entire debate futile to begin with.  Again, it goes back to addressing the real issues that have led to the "problem"

It is a tough problem.  One thing I am absolutely convinced of is this:  CRS stands a much better chance to figure out the correct solution than Washington.

The real issues at the root of the problem are the hold up as it is much easier to focus on small problems and pass blame than to dedicate time and energy to creating a self-sustaining system that would provide for all without providing hand-outsin order to encourage hard work and promote the values of an education.

[Marshal Dillon]

Coach:

You're 100% correct, the border must be secured first and foremost because nothing else matters in our immigration policy if we can't stop the flow of illegals into OUR COUNTRY. Has anyone seen the super-strict immigration policies of Mexico? They are way more strict than ours. Talk about hypocrisy.

[che boludo]

I have no axe to grind with the country.  Only its narrow minded fools on both sides of the aisles.

I am not familiar with La RAZA or its propaganda, but I have taken the time to educate myself and experience life for what it is.  

Looking at life through a coke straw doesn't give you the perspective to make any informed opinion.

You know nothing about me, but your failure to see my comments as the middle ground approach toward creating real change that they were says a lot about you.

I am not embarrassed of my citizenship and genuinely take offense to that as I am willing to bet that I have done more to honor that citizenship than you...without going so far as to guarantee it, as like you of me, I don't know you or your history.  

But, I am disappointed with those within it that are so narrow minded as to take such a strong stance on what is nothing more than a new racial agenda as opposed to addressing the root of the problem and dealing with it directly.  But, like I said, it is much easier to create strong feelings of division than to face real issues.

Sorry if you fit that category, but I'd thank you to not challenge my patriotism nor sense of obligation and gratitude to our nation as I am certain you wouldn't do it to my face...at least not more than once.

Ah yes, the old "racial or racist encitememt" when your ilk can't win an argument. I was waiting for that and really was interested to see if you woud stoop so low. Well, you didn't disappoint. By the way, did I mention I am MARRIED to an Hispanic and we have a teenage son. What a pathetic and sorry attempt at smearing someone and trying to shut me up. Also, I'm really impressed with your statement of manhood and subtle threat about me saying something to your face.  I wouldn't hesitate one second to say the same thing to your face, tough guy. This is America, not Mexico, we settle our disputes at the ballot box, in case you didn't know that.

Your inability to read and interpret anything except what you desire is showing in your last response.  I clearly said that it may not apply to you, but it is undeniably the root cause of the issue.

It is very easy to be bold on the internet with your thoughts and lack of any legitimate argument other than "I don't like them, so they should go."   You are the one taking the low road as you continually show your ignorance and lack of ability to respond with any intelligent thought.  Plus, you first attempted to make it a race issue as I was talking about needed reform that could address both immigration issues, but more importantly better America as a whole which is a real discussion.

I could care less who you are married to, it has no bearing on the crux of the discussion which you are making an argument as you have no real ideas to offer.  So, yes, you do fit the category of what is wrong with American politics.  It is divided by extremist groups on both sides that refuse to see middle ground in ANYTHING, so nothing gets done, yet we have all of these agendas that are aimed at truly fixing jack-and-squat..  There are better solutions out there than what we are being offered.

And, yes, I would take issue with you challenging me in person, but in that you continue to come across like just another narrow-minded sheep that is entrenched in his own views, I'd probably let it slide on second-thought as I know where I stand and where I've been.   

[Marshal Dillon]

I have no axe to grind with the country.  Only its narrow minded fools on both sides of the aisles.

I am not familiar with La RAZA or its propaganda, but I have taken the time to educate myself and experience life for what it is.  

Looking at life through a coke straw doesn't give you the perspective to make any informed opinion.

You know nothing about me, but your failure to see my comments as the middle ground approach toward creating real change that they were says a lot about you.

I am not embarrassed of my citizenship and genuinely take offense to that as I am willing to bet that I have done more to honor that citizenship than you...without going so far as to guarantee it, as like you of me, I don't know you or your history.  

But, I am disappointed with those within it that are so narrow minded as to take such a strong stance on what is nothing more than a new racial agenda as opposed to addressing the root of the problem and dealing with it directly.  But, like I said, it is much easier to create strong feelings of division than to face real issues.

Sorry if you fit that category, but I'd thank you to not challenge my patriotism nor sense of obligation and gratitude to our nation as I am certain you wouldn't do it to my face...at least not more than once.

Ah yes, the old "racial or racist encitememt" when your ilk can't win an argument. I was waiting for that and really was interested to see if you woud stoop so low. Well, you didn't disappoint. By the way, did I mention I am MARRIED to an Hispanic and we have a teenage son. What a pathetic and sorry attempt at smearing someone and trying to shut me up. Also, I'm really impressed with your statement of manhood and subtle threat about me saying something to your face.  I wouldn't hesitate one second to say the same thing to your face, tough guy. This is America, not Mexico, we settle our disputes at the ballot box, in case you didn't know that.

Your inability to read and interpret anything except what you desire is showing in your last response.  I clearly said that it may not apply to you, but it is undeniably the root cause of the issue.

It is very easy to be bold on the internet with your thoughts and lack of any legitimate argument other than "I don't like them, so they should go."   You are the one taking the low road as you continually show your ignorance and lack of ability to respond with any intelligent thought.  Plus, you first attempted to make it a race issue as I was talking about needed reform that could address both immigration issues, but more importantly better America as a whole which is a real discussion.

I could care less who you are married to, it has no bearing on the crux of the discussion which you are making an argument as you have no real ideas to offer.  So, yes, you do fit the category of what is wrong with American politics.  It is divided by extremist groups on both sides that refuse to see middle ground in ANYTHING, so nothing gets done, yet we have all of these agendas that are aimed at truly fixing jack-and-squat..  There are better solutions out there than what we are being offered.

And, yes, I would take issue with you challenging me in person, but in that you continue to come across like just another narrow-minded sheep that is entrenched in his own views, I'd probably let it slide on second-thought as I know where I stand and where I've been.   

Ah yes, now we're into the high and mighty aspect of your argument. You are so predicable in your liberal ways. You can't win an argument, so you attack the messenger by inferring they are racist, backwards, ignorant, uneducated, don't know the issues, etc., etc. You get called out for using the race card and now you have to retreat and come up with a new attack. The same old pablum you liberals have been spouting for 40 years, because you won't really address an issue. Plus, you take what someone says and then lie about what the person just stated. Amazing. Yes, che, the all knowing, better-than-thou person who has to tolerate these ignorant "sheep." Man, you are really full of yourself. I feel sorry for you. It's a shame you have to address someone as ignorant and lowly as me. I guess if the other posters disagree with you they will be just as ignorant, right?

[SUPERCOACH]

Now we are getting somewhere.

Response to Che:

1.  Sorry, I didn't just mean the Southern border.  I meant ALL of the borders, as well as the ports.  If we can put a man on the moon we can secure ALL of the borders.  Just my opinion.

2.  I like the idea of having a way for them to come and go easier.  I don't like the idea of paying them less than minimum wage.

3.  I'm not opposed to that.  That seems just.  But I would also be OK with sending them back and saving the money it would cost to keep them in prison.

4.  I agree.

5.  I don't know what the actual number is for illegals, but I've heard 12 million so let's just use that as the number.  So why don't we create 12 million new immigration visas, and start awarding them.  First they go to the folks who have been in line all these years to come here legally, but this will happen naturally since they are already at the front of the line.  The 12 million or so who are here illegally would have to get in the same line, but presumably there aren't 12 million people already in line so the ones who get in line first will be able to come back in almost immediately and be totally legal.  When I say come back in I don't mean literally.  They don't have to actually leave to get in line.  The last ones to get in line would end up having to wait a little while until some new spots opened up.  This would give them an incentive to get in line and do it right ASAP.  In the meantime, don't round them up or deport them or anything like that.  Maybe you give them some sort of lessor status if they come forward, but not as good as what the official 12 million will get so that they still have an incentive to get in line.  Maybe they can stick around under this lessor status until their turn comes up.

Just some thoughts.

[che boludo]

HA...liberal agenda.  That is a first for me.  Pardon me if I share that with some of my colleagues and family.  They'll love it.

Where does a call for stricter regulations on social services, a call for educational reform, job creation, and a functional migrant worker policy fir into the liberal agenda (that eats at the heart of the Unions and lower income families who compose that basis of the liberal platforms).

Do you listen to yourself?

Have you read a word of what I have written?

You opened with an attack (not an intelligible response) then continued to do so challenging my own sense of patriotism for daring to have an idea that was spat out to me by one agenda based party or the other.

Am I the only one seeing this?

If calling for the discussion to transcend the trivial issues and truly fix some of what is wrong with the US makes me less American, than so be it.  

You are a piece of work man.  YES, your every response makes you sound more and more like one of those sheep.  And, yes, I'm sorry that I chose to engage in any attempt at a rational conversation with someone who has no desire to offer any attempt at rational conversation in return.

[Marshal Dillon]

How about some ofthese ideas Supercoach:

1.  Illegals could not recieve ANY federal benefits such as social security, food stamps, welfare, student loans, medcare, medicaid, etc., if they enter our country illegally.

2.  Illegals do not stabiize wages, they suppress them and cost Americans jobs. I know for a fact there are landscape & construction businesses paying illegals LESS than the minimum wage, so naturally they won't hire, say a carpenter, and pay him &16 n hour when they can hire an illegal for maybe $7 to $8 an hour. I say we need to heavily penalize companies that take advantage of illegals like this.

3.  I have to get back to my ignorant, uninformed, & racist work and will get back with more, later.

[Marshal Dillon]

HA...liberal agenda.  That is a first for me.  Pardon me if I share that with some of my colleagues and family.  They'll love it.

Where does a call for stricter regulations on social services, a call for educational reform, job creation, and a functional migrant worker policy fir into the liberal agenda (that eats at the heart of the Unions and lower income families who compose that basis of the liberal platforms).

Do you listen to yourself?

Have you read a word of what I have written?

You opened with an attack (not an intelligible response) then continued to do so challenging my own sense of patriotism for daring to have an idea that was spat out to me by one agenda based party or the other.

Am I the only one seeing this?

If calling for the discussion to transcend the trivial issues and truly fix some of what is wrong with the US makes me less American, than so be it.  

You are a piece of work man.  YES, your every response makes you sound more and more like one of those sheep.  And, yes, I'm sorry that I chose to engage in any attempt at a rational conversation with someone who has no desire to offer any attempt at rational conversation in return.

Let me see, you play the race card, call me ignorant and a sheep, hint at physical action towards me for exressing my opinion, but I'm attacking you. WOW!

[che boludo]

Now we are getting somewhere.

Response to Che:

1.  Sorry, I didn't just mean the Southern border.  I meant ALL of the borders, as well as the ports.  If we can put a man on the moon we can secure ALL of the borders.  Just my opinion.

2.  I like the idea of having a way for them to come and go easier.  I don't like the idea of paying them less than minimum wage.

3.  I'm not opposed to that.  That seems just.  But I would also be OK with sending them back and saving the money it would cost to keep them in prison.

4.  I agree.

5.  I don't know what the actual number is for illegals, but I've heard 12 million so let's just use that as the number.  So why don't we create 12 million new immigration visas, and start awarding them.  First they go to the folks who have been in line all these years to come here legally, but this will happen naturally since they are already at the front of the line.  The 12 million or so who are here illegally would have to get in the same line, but presumably there aren't 12 million people already in line so the ones who get in line first will be able to come back in almost immediately and be totally legal.  When I say come back in I don't mean literally.  They don't have to actually leave to get in line.  The last ones to get in line would end up having to wait a little while until some new spots opened up.  This would give them an incentive to get in line and do it right ASAP.  In the meantime, don't round them up or deport them or anything like that.  Maybe you give them some sort of lessor status if they come forward, but not as good as what the official 12 million will get so that they still have an incentive to get in line.  Maybe they can stick around under this lessor status until their turn comes up.

Just some thoughts.

At risk of disappointing the good Marshall and letting my conservatism show, minimum wage is a liberal agenda designed to garner votes from the lower class when in actuality it leads to more unemployment for that same base as business can afford to hire fewer and fewer teenagers for the job (and others who are in true need of money to work for minimum wage).

So, allowing employers to take advantage of migrant workers for wages less than what average Americans would do the job, it provides a cost savings.

Not that it would win many votes, but reducing or simply doing away with minimum wage would have a much larger positive effect as companies could determine the true market rate of wages.  As input costs were lowered, final purchase prices would be lower as well.

Yes, employers that typically employ at minimum wage may opt for cost savings of immigrants working as legal migrant workers, but if the greater good is served by the tax generation of "illegals" working legally and ultimately bring goods to the market at a lower price for consumption, it benefits all and helps remove some of the artificiality in the pricing market (reducing inflation and cost of staple good products and services).

I like the gist of your other ideas, but the point remains that real issues continue to take a backseat to distractors like immigration issues.

[che boludo]

In hindsight, I guess the point is that Auburn sux and their board of trustees is finally getting a much needed face lift.

Sorry, Bamawv.

[Marshal Dillon]

posted by che boludo:


At risk of disappointing the good Marshall and letting my conservatism show, minimum wage is a liberal agenda designed to garner votes from the lower class when in actuality it leads to more unemployment for that same base as business can afford to hire fewer and fewer teenagers for the job (and others who are in true need of money to work for minimum wage).

So, allowing employers to take advantage of migrant workers for wages less than what average Americans would do the job, it provides a cost savings.

Not that it would win many votes, but reducing or simply doing away with minimum wage would have a much larger positive effect as companies could determine the true market rate of wages.  As input costs were lowered, final purchase prices would be lower as well.

Yes, employers that typically employ at minimum wage may opt for cost savings of illegal immigrants, but if the greater good is served by the tax generation of "illegals" working legally and ultimately bring goods to the market at a lower price for consumption, it benefits all and helps remove some of the artificiality in the pricing market (reducing inflation and cost of staple good products and services).I like the gist of your other ideas, but the point remains that real issues continue to take a backseat to distractors like immigration issues.


I agree with this. There may be hope for you after all. And what about limiting the federal benefits to illegals, where do you stand on that?

I completely agree about the minimum wage, but we can't allow illegals to take jobs from Americans in construction. Unions are not the answer, but neither is using illegals to take jobs. I am not or have ever been a construction worker, so I am not saying this for my own benefit.

[ssmith general]

Minimum wage is like the unions.  Time and a place, but it's gone now.

However, I would like to point out that in 1993 when I was 16 I made 3.35 an hour.  What is it now?  7.50?  The arguement that someone should be able to live on it is socialist.

[Marshal Dillon]

Minimum wage is like the unions.  Time and a place, but it's gone now.

However, I would like to point out that in 1993 when I was 16 I made 3.35 an hour.  What is it now?  7.50?  The arguement that someone should be able to live on it is socialist.

Yeah, every economist knows the minimum wage is useless, but it's a handy political tool for the Democrats. I still think there is a place for unions, but they have way too much power and input in the political system. Just look at AEA in Alabama as an example.

[SUPERCOACH]

Response to Marshal:

1.  That seems reasonable to me.  I don't think most of them would care, they didn't come here to get food stamps.

2.  I agree.  I don't think they should ever be paid less than minimum wage.  I also think you have to go after the companies that hire them.  I know some local businesses that do that too and the owner of the company is just making a huge amount of money and not paying his employees hardly anything.  He still has the same revenue, but his payroll is about half what it was.  This nonsense has to stop.  This is another reason why the 12 million who are here illegally have to be brought into the system officially in some sort of capacity.  It makes it harder to hide such shenanigans if those 12 million have social security numbers and are paying taxes.  Of course if we have 12 million now when they are being treated like dogs, how many would we have if they were being treated like regular plain old poor American citizens?

3.  No comment. 

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