The Great Immigration Debate

[ssmith general]

Response to Marshal:

1.  That seems reasonable to me.  I don't think most of them would care, they didn't come here to get food stamps.

2.  I agree.  I don't think they should ever be paid less than minimum wage.  I also think you have to go after the companies that hire them.  I know some local businesses that do that too and the owner of the company is just making a huge amount of money and not paying his employees hardly anything.  He still has the same revenue, but his payroll is about half what it was.  This nonsense has to stop.  This is another reason why the 12 million who are here illegally have to be brought into the system officially in some sort of capacity.  It makes it harder to hide such shenanigans if those 12 million have social security numbers and are paying taxes.  Of course if we have 12 million now when they are being treated like dogs, how many would we have if they were being treated like regular plain old poor American citizens?

3.  No comment. 

2. Wait a second, I thought minimum wage was useless?  If that is the case, why is it the standard for pay for the illegals?  The no minimum wage argument says let the market determine the wage. 

[ricky023]

Well all I know is after my great Honor to serve my country and I worked construction 33 yrs. and I am on a fixed income that would starve anybody but my wife skimps and we make it. I don't fuss cause I am not allowed to but I can say one thing You voted for change last time and you got it. I think I've had all the change I can handle before I starve to death. I still think Aburn should have a lot more diversity of people on that board to fix their problem. JMHO. RTR!

[Marshal Dillon]

Response to Marshal:

1.  That seems reasonable to me.  I don't think most of them would care, they didn't come here to get food stamps.

2.  I agree.  I don't think they should ever be paid less than minimum wage.  I also think you have to go after the companies that hire them.  I know some local businesses that do that too and the owner of the company is just making a huge amount of money and not paying his employees hardly anything.  He still has the same revenue, but his payroll is about half what it was.  This nonsense has to stop.  This is another reason why the 12 million who are here illegally have to be brought into the system officially in some sort of capacity.  It makes it harder to hide such shenanigans if those 12 million have social security numbers and are paying taxes.  Of course if we have 12 million now when they are being treated like dogs, how many would we have if they were being treated like regular plain old poor American citizens?

3.  No comment. 

2. Wait a second, I thought minimum wage was useless?  If that is the case, why is it the standard for pay for the illegals?  The no minimum wage argument says let the market determine the wage. 

Yeah, it's a tough issue, but the illegals are getting less than minimum wage and the owner walks away with a huge profit. Since most Amerians won't wok for less than minimum wage, the owner doesn't have to pay higher wages because he can use illegals. That corupts the normal give and take on wages, since you can find illegals to do the work.

[che boludo]

posted by che boludo:


At risk of disappointing the good Marshall and letting my conservatism show, minimum wage is a liberal agenda designed to garner votes from the lower class when in actuality it leads to more unemployment for that same base as business can afford to hire fewer and fewer teenagers for the job (and others who are in true need of money to work for minimum wage).

So, allowing employers to take advantage of migrant workers for wages less than what average Americans would do the job, it provides a cost savings.

Not that it would win many votes, but reducing or simply doing away with minimum wage would have a much larger positive effect as companies could determine the true market rate of wages.  As input costs were lowered, final purchase prices would be lower as well.

Yes, employers that typically employ at minimum wage may opt for cost savings of illegal immigrants, but if the greater good is served by the tax generation of "illegals" working legally and ultimately bring goods to the market at a lower price for consumption, it benefits all and helps remove some of the artificiality in the pricing market (reducing inflation and cost of staple good products and services).I like the gist of your other ideas, but the point remains that real issues continue to take a backseat to distractors like immigration issues.


I agree with this. There may be hope for you after all. And what about limiting the federal benefits to illegals, where do you stand on that?

I completely agree about the minimum wage, but we can't allow illegals to take jobs from Americans in construction. Unions are not the answer, but neither is using illegals to take jobs. I am not or have ever been a construction worker, so I am not saying this for my own benefit.

"I agree with this. There may be hope for you after all. And what about limiting the federal benefits to illegals, where do you stand on that?"


Seriously, are you joking?  Are you just trying to tell me that you haven't read anything.

I am for complete social service reform that makes it more strict for all and eliminates those who are not entitled to it.  That alone, would solve much of the real issue.  If hand outs are more difficult to come by...less people will come by.

Not sure what your selection of construction workers is.  But, if basic laborers are replaced by legal migrant workers (which I am for instituting), so be it.  That is why I included that the US should focus its budget on job creation and education (which includes higher education and developing skills for basic laborers displaced by migrant workers which create better job paying opportunities than they had initially).  So, with the institution of migrant worker policies, we would definitely have to address those problems of under-employment.  Additional job skills training and more affordable education goes a long way toward that doing that.

The most liberal thing I will say is that if any artificial reform should be instituted it should be at the cost of a state funded education.  There is no need to deny the majority of Americans the opportunity to educate themselves and earn a specialized degree without forcing them into extreme amounts of debt.  It is a natural means to instill class separation in the US between the haves and have nots.  If efforts were put in place to eliminate that barrier, we would see the best and brightest minds truly rise the top with a true appreciation for what it took to get there.

The more educated our population is the better off we all are.  The real power in the world is not the generation of primary good markets, it lies in services and technologies.  The nation that dominates that sector provides a benefit to itself and will continue to lead the world.  The path to achieving that is through education.  So, yes, wholesale education is reform is necessary to focus on math, sciences, and physical education (much like the post-WW2 agenda which enabled us to win the cold war and place that man on the moon that Coach mentioned)

[SUPERCOACH]

I pretty much agree with everything you guys said about minimum wage.  It is horrible and should go.  I guess the point I was trying to get at is that businesses shouldn't be able to take advantage of the immigrants and bypass the minimum wage laws.  If we have a minimum wage (which we do), then they should be forced to pay it to the immigrant workers too.  This levels the playing field and allows citizens to compete for those jobs if they want to.  I know people right now that would be happy to work for less than minimum wage if they could just get a job.  But that is not an option for them.  I agree that it would be best to get rid of minimum wage altogether and let the market set the wage.

[ssmith general]

Response to Marshal:

1.  That seems reasonable to me.  I don't think most of them would care, they didn't come here to get food stamps.

2.  I agree.  I don't think they should ever be paid less than minimum wage.  I also think you have to go after the companies that hire them.  I know some local businesses that do that too and the owner of the company is just making a huge amount of money and not paying his employees hardly anything.  He still has the same revenue, but his payroll is about half what it was.  This nonsense has to stop.  This is another reason why the 12 million who are here illegally have to be brought into the system officially in some sort of capacity.  It makes it harder to hide such shenanigans if those 12 million have social security numbers and are paying taxes.  Of course if we have 12 million now when they are being treated like dogs, how many would we have if they were being treated like regular plain old poor American citizens?

3.  No comment. 

2. Wait a second, I thought minimum wage was useless?  If that is the case, why is it the standard for pay for the illegals?  The no minimum wage argument says let the market determine the wage. 

Yeah, it's a tough issue, but the illegals are getting less than minimum wage and the owner walks away with a huge profit. Since most Amerians won't wok for less than minimum wage, the owner doesn't have to pay higher wages because he can use illegals. That corupts the normal give and take on wages, since you can find illegals to do the work.

Sounds like it.  Well, Smith bushhogging has a strict policy against hiring illegal aliens.

[che boludo]

Response to Marshal:

1.  That seems reasonable to me.  I don't think most of them would care, they didn't come here to get food stamps.

2.  I agree.  I don't think they should ever be paid less than minimum wage.  I also think you have to go after the companies that hire them.  I know some local businesses that do that too and the owner of the company is just making a huge amount of money and not paying his employees hardly anything.  He still has the same revenue, but his payroll is about half what it was.  This nonsense has to stop.  This is another reason why the 12 million who are here illegally have to be brought into the system officially in some sort of capacity.  It makes it harder to hide such shenanigans if those 12 million have social security numbers and are paying taxes.  Of course if we have 12 million now when they are being treated like dogs, how many would we have if they were being treated like regular plain old poor American citizens?

3.  No comment. 

2. Wait a second, I thought minimum wage was useless?  If that is the case, why is it the standard for pay for the illegals?  The no minimum wage argument says let the market determine the wage. 

Yeah, it's a tough issue, but the illegals are getting less than minimum wage and the owner walks away with a huge profit. Since most Amerians won't wok for less than minimum wage, the owner doesn't have to pay higher wages because he can use illegals. That corupts the normal give and take on wages, since you can find illegals to do the work.

To me it is like prohibition, do away with it and the extreme cost advantage goes away as the migrant workers would have more rights and be less willing to simply take their pennies on the dollar pay because they have no voice.  There would still be a cost advantage, but the end result would be better for all.

legalize migrant workers and the US economy gains from their work efforts while instituing policies to reform social services across the board protect all US interests.  We benefit from them without the burden of having to support them when they are no longer in the workforce. (don't mean to sound blunt, but I used burden in the sense to mean "pay for" not toimply that our senior citizens are a burden to us.  Thye are the one group I am for providing more support, assuming that those represent persons who worked hard all of their lives).

[SUPERCOACH]

Response to Marshal:

1.  That seems reasonable to me.  I don't think most of them would care, they didn't come here to get food stamps.

2.  I agree.  I don't think they should ever be paid less than minimum wage.  I also think you have to go after the companies that hire them.  I know some local businesses that do that too and the owner of the company is just making a huge amount of money and not paying his employees hardly anything.  He still has the same revenue, but his payroll is about half what it was.  This nonsense has to stop.  This is another reason why the 12 million who are here illegally have to be brought into the system officially in some sort of capacity.  It makes it harder to hide such shenanigans if those 12 million have social security numbers and are paying taxes.  Of course if we have 12 million now when they are being treated like dogs, how many would we have if they were being treated like regular plain old poor American citizens?

3.  No comment. 

2. Wait a second, I thought minimum wage was useless?  If that is the case, why is it the standard for pay for the illegals?  The no minimum wage argument says let the market determine the wage. 

Yeah, it's a tough issue, but the illegals are getting less than minimum wage and the owner walks away with a huge profit. Since most Amerians won't wok for less than minimum wage, the owner doesn't have to pay higher wages because he can use illegals. That corupts the normal give and take on wages, since you can find illegals to do the work.

Sounds like it.  Well, Smith bushhogging has a strict policy against hiring illegal aliens.

                     

[ssmith general]

Response to Marshal:

1.  That seems reasonable to me.  I don't think most of them would care, they didn't come here to get food stamps.

2.  I agree.  I don't think they should ever be paid less than minimum wage.  I also think you have to go after the companies that hire them.  I know some local businesses that do that too and the owner of the company is just making a huge amount of money and not paying his employees hardly anything.  He still has the same revenue, but his payroll is about half what it was.  This nonsense has to stop.  This is another reason why the 12 million who are here illegally have to be brought into the system officially in some sort of capacity.  It makes it harder to hide such shenanigans if those 12 million have social security numbers and are paying taxes.  Of course if we have 12 million now when they are being treated like dogs, how many would we have if they were being treated like regular plain old poor American citizens?

3.  No comment.  

2. Wait a second, I thought minimum wage was useless?  If that is the case, why is it the standard for pay for the illegals?  The no minimum wage argument says let the market determine the wage.  

Yeah, it's a tough issue, but the illegals are getting less than minimum wage and the owner walks away with a huge profit. Since most Amerians won't wok for less than minimum wage, the owner doesn't have to pay higher wages because he can use illegals. That corupts the normal give and take on wages, since you can find illegals to do the work.

To me it is like prohibition, do away with it and the extreme cost advantage goes away as the migrant workers would have more rights and be less willing to simply take their pennies on the dollar pay because they have no voice.  There would still be a cost advantage, but the end result would be better for all.

legalize migrant workers and the US economy gains from their work efforts while instituing policies to reform social services across the board protect all US interests.  We benefit from them without the burden of having to support them when they are no longer in the workforce. (don't mean to sound blunt, but I used burden in the sense to mean "pay for" not toimply that our senior citizens are a burden to us.  Thye are the one group I am for providing more support, assuming that those represent persons who worked hard all of their lives).

Wouldnt eliminating minimum wage entirely also solve the issue?

[che boludo]

Response to Marshal:

1.  That seems reasonable to me.  I don't think most of them would care, they didn't come here to get food stamps.

2.  I agree.  I don't think they should ever be paid less than minimum wage.  I also think you have to go after the companies that hire them.  I know some local businesses that do that too and the owner of the company is just making a huge amount of money and not paying his employees hardly anything.  He still has the same revenue, but his payroll is about half what it was.  This nonsense has to stop.  This is another reason why the 12 million who are here illegally have to be brought into the system officially in some sort of capacity.  It makes it harder to hide such shenanigans if those 12 million have social security numbers and are paying taxes.  Of course if we have 12 million now when they are being treated like dogs, how many would we have if they were being treated like regular plain old poor American citizens?

3.  No comment. 

2. Wait a second, I thought minimum wage was useless?  If that is the case, why is it the standard for pay for the illegals?  The no minimum wage argument says let the market determine the wage. 

Yeah, it's a tough issue, but the illegals are getting less than minimum wage and the owner walks away with a huge profit. Since most Amerians won't wok for less than minimum wage, the owner doesn't have to pay higher wages because he can use illegals. That corupts the normal give and take on wages, since you can find illegals to do the work.

To me it is like prohibition, do away with it and the extreme cost advantage goes away as the migrant workers would have more rights and be less willing to simply take their pennies on the dollar pay because they have no voice.  There would still be a cost advantage, but the end result would be better for all.

legalize migrant workers and the US economy gains from their work efforts while instituing policies to reform social services across the board protect all US interests.  We benefit from them without the burden of having to support them when they are no longer in the workforce. (don't mean to sound blunt, but I used burden in the sense to mean "pay for" not toimply that our senior citizens are a burden to us.  Thye are the one group I am for providing more support, assuming that those represent persons who worked hard all of their lives).

Wouldnt eliminating minimum wage entirely also solve the issue?

It would help lots of issues.  But, strict social and educational reform are key as well, plus a workable migrant worker policy.  But, like you said and I agreed with earlier, the abolition of a minimum wage does more to combat the problems associated with illegal immigration than anything else....without the need for a big fence.

So, it goes back to being a policy issue.  We have the tools to fix the problem, but no ability to get it done in Congress as partisanship generally wins the day.  Social and educational reform coupled with a workable migrant worker policy would also solve lots of issues.

Doing away with minimum wage would be a big step forward, but if no legal migrant worker policy exists, illegals will always be willing to undercut the fair market wage.  If becoming a migrant worker (legally) offers you more rights and access while choosing to be illegal gives you no access and will result in imprisonment, there is more incentive to be a migrant worker.

Like I said, costs of living here legally (even as a migrant worker) would prevent the extreme wage differences as migrant workers had more of a voice (and less fear) to try for higher wages.

[Marshal Dillon]

I'll get back with you guys later. This is an excellent discussion. My Latino wife has just come home to her racist, uneducated, ignorant husband and we are going to eat.

 

[ssmith general]

Response to Marshal:

1.  That seems reasonable to me.  I don't think most of them would care, they didn't come here to get food stamps.

2.  I agree.  I don't think they should ever be paid less than minimum wage.  I also think you have to go after the companies that hire them.  I know some local businesses that do that too and the owner of the company is just making a huge amount of money and not paying his employees hardly anything.  He still has the same revenue, but his payroll is about half what it was.  This nonsense has to stop.  This is another reason why the 12 million who are here illegally have to be brought into the system officially in some sort of capacity.  It makes it harder to hide such shenanigans if those 12 million have social security numbers and are paying taxes.  Of course if we have 12 million now when they are being treated like dogs, how many would we have if they were being treated like regular plain old poor American citizens?

3.  No comment.  

2. Wait a second, I thought minimum wage was useless?  If that is the case, why is it the standard for pay for the illegals?  The no minimum wage argument says let the market determine the wage.  

Yeah, it's a tough issue, but the illegals are getting less than minimum wage and the owner walks away with a huge profit. Since most Amerians won't wok for less than minimum wage, the owner doesn't have to pay higher wages because he can use illegals. That corupts the normal give and take on wages, since you can find illegals to do the work.

To me it is like prohibition, do away with it and the extreme cost advantage goes away as the migrant workers would have more rights and be less willing to simply take their pennies on the dollar pay because they have no voice.  There would still be a cost advantage, but the end result would be better for all.

legalize migrant workers and the US economy gains from their work efforts while instituing policies to reform social services across the board protect all US interests.  We benefit from them without the burden of having to support them when they are no longer in the workforce. (don't mean to sound blunt, but I used burden in the sense to mean "pay for" not toimply that our senior citizens are a burden to us.  Thye are the one group I am for providing more support, assuming that those represent persons who worked hard all of their lives).

Wouldnt eliminating minimum wage entirely also solve the issue?

It would help lots of issues.  But, strict social and educational reform are key as well, plus a workable migrant worker policy.  But, like you said and I agreed with earlier, the abolition of a minimum wage does more to combat the problems associated with illegal immigration than anything else....without the need for a big fence.

So, it goes back to being a policy issue.  We have the tools to fix the problem, but no ability to get it done in Congress as partisanship generally wins the day.  Social and educational reform coupled with a workable migrant worker policy would also solve lots of issues.

Doing away with minimum wage would be a big step forward, but if no legal migrant worker policy exists, illegals will always be willing to undercut the fair market wage.  If becoming a migrant worker (legally) offers you more rights and access while choosing to be illegal gives you no access and will result in imprisonment, there is more incentive to be a migrant worker.

Like I said, costs of living here legally (even as a migrant worker) would prevent the extreme wage differences and make it more appealing for migrant workers to fight for higher wages.

Makes sense to me. 

[SUPERCOACH]

My own desire for border security has nothing to do with immigration.  And it doesn't need to be a fence.  What ever is necessary and most effective at keeping Mahmoud from sneaking in a dirty bomb.  The fact that essentially a peasant can penetrate our border at will undetected is a huge concern.

[che boludo]

I'll get back with you guys later. This is an excellent discussion. My Latino wife has just come home to her racist, uneducated, ignorant husband and we are going to eat.

 

I don't know how true those are or not, but she could help you with comprehension. 

[ssmith general]

My own desire for border security has nothing to do with immigration.  And it doesn't need to be a fence.  What ever is necessary and most effective at keeping Mahmoud from sneaking in a dirty bomb.  The fact that essentially a peasant can penetrate our border at will undetected is a huge concern.

There was a republican from Pennsylvania who crossed the river into America twice on an elephant with a mariachi band accompanying him without being detected*.

* Disclaimer: from memory, details are sketchy

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