Our D-Line

[Chechem]

I guess you guys are too young to remember the 1961 National Championship led by Lee Roy Jordan gave up only 22 points in the 10 regular season games including 6 shutouts. Won the Sugar Bowl by beating Ark. 10-3. Gave up a total 25 points in the 11 game season.

I remember.  As a result, they moved the hash marks in like the NFL game ...

and God created 'hashtags'.

 

[Leewillie]

I guess you guys are too young to remember the 1961 National Championship led by Lee Roy Jordan gave up only 22 points in the 10 regular season games including 6 shutouts. Won the Sugar Bowl by beating Ark. 10-3. Gave up a total 25 points in the 11 game season.

I remember.  As a result, they moved the hash marks in like the NFL game ...

and God created 'hashtags'.

 

That was also in the era of  "one platoon" football.  Those guys played both ways.  Wonder how many of today's 300 pounders could go both ways for the entire game? 

[Chechem]

Good points, Lee.

"Another thing ... is the number of players on the sidelines. This is perhaps the biggest difference between the pro and college games. ... Until the early 1960s, player substitutions were limited and players played both offense and defense. By 1964, all substitution rules had vanished, and everyone was playing two-platoon football with entirely separate squads as well as punting and place kicking specialists.

...Today, the average college team has at least twice as many players as an NFL team. There are no precise records, but here's one example. Alabama's 1961 national championship team usually took 50 to 55 players on road games. Last year's Crimson Tide national champs suited up almost twice as many. The larger roster is the direct result of two-platoon football, in which players no longer need more than a single skill to earn a starting slot. The old-fashioned college football star, exemplified in the song "Mr. Touchdown USA"—"He can run and kick and throw"—is no longer needed. He has been replaced by three men."

Click here for link

[ricky023]

Good points, Lee.

"Another thing ... is the number of players on the sidelines. This is perhaps the biggest difference between the pro and college games. ... Until the early 1960s, player substitutions were limited and players played both offense and defense. By 1964, all substitution rules had vanished, and everyone was playing two-platoon football with entirely separate squads as well as punting and place kicking specialists.

...Today, the average college team has at least twice as many players as an NFL team. There are no precise records, but here's one example. Alabama's 1961 national championship team usually took 50 to 55 players on road games. Last year's Crimson Tide national champs suited up almost twice as many. The larger roster is the direct result of two-platoon football, in which players no longer need more than a single skill to earn a starting slot. The old-fashioned college football star, exemplified in the song "Mr. Touchdown USA"—"He can run and kick and throw"—is no longer needed. He has been replaced by three men."

Click here for link

Wow weeee.  Well said Chechem. Now I never thought of all the knowledge you just gave here. I appreciate these facts. RTR!

[Catch Prothro]

Good points, Lee.

"Another thing ... is the number of players on the sidelines. This is perhaps the biggest difference between the pro and college games. ... Until the early 1960s, player substitutions were limited and players played both offense and defense. By 1964, all substitution rules had vanished, and everyone was playing two-platoon football with entirely separate squads as well as punting and place kicking specialists.

...Today, the average college team has at least twice as many players as an NFL team. There are no precise records, but here's one example. Alabama's 1961 national championship team usually took 50 to 55 players on road games. Last year's Crimson Tide national champs suited up almost twice as many. The larger roster is the direct result of two-platoon football, in which players no longer need more than a single skill to earn a starting slot. The old-fashioned college football star, exemplified in the song "Mr. Touchdown USA"—"He can run and kick and throw"—is no longer needed. He has been replaced by three men."

Click here for link

I didn't read the link, but it sounds intentionally misleading.  Certainly a lot of history is missing between that 1961 team and Saban's 2009 team.  And while obviously the game has changed, the players have gotten bigger and more specialized, I don't necessarily follow how the author got there or why he sought to skew history.

For one thing, there were no scholarship limits in those days, and once the substitution rules relaxed in 1964 it was common for coaches like Bryant to stack the roster with talent.  150 player rosters were typical, although schools might only  identify those athletes who lettered as playing for the team. 

The "50 to 55" road game players sounds intentionally misleading, especially when claiming Bama "suited up" (whatever that means) twice as many players under Saban's championship team.... since NCAA rules and SEC bylaws specifically limit teams to travelling with 70 players today.   Twice as many?  Is that fuzzy math?

Indeed, 1973 saw the first scholarship limit to 105 players, which was reduced to 95 in 1978 and 85 in 1992.  So Saban's teams are playing with at least 20 less players than Bryant had available once limits were first imposed in 1973, and before then Bryant had even more players.  I watched those games.  The players weren't as big, but there were more of them.  I was young then, but I seem to remember Bryant having an A Team Offense, a B Team Offense, and a C Team offense, all complete squads.  You don't see that level of depth today.

Interestingly, with the advent of the HUNH offenses, Saban is moving away from specialization on his defense and towards players that can play every down, as substitution is impossible unless the offense also substitutes.  So maybe the pendulum is already swinging back the other way.

Everyone knows the game has changed.  More games, bigger players, more TV coverage, more money.  I guess the article would have been boring if that were its only claim.   

Here's a few links on scholarship limits history: 

"Having 150 players on a football team wasn’t uncommon through the 1960s."  Click here for link

A brief history of NCAA football scholarships:
Click here for link

Article 17 governs team size, including travelling football team.  Here is Alabama's copy of the SEC manual, page 29 has a chart of team size allowances:  Click here for link

[Chechem]

...
I didn't read the link, but it sounds intentionally misleading.  Certainly a lot of history is missing between that 1961 team and Saban's 2009 team.  And while obviously the game has changed, the players have gotten bigger and more specialized, I don't necessarily follow how the author got there or why he sought to skew history.

For one thing, there were no scholarship limits in those days, and once the substitution rules relaxed in 1964 it was common for coaches like Bryant to stack the roster with talent.  150 player rosters were typical, although schools might only  identify those athletes who lettered as playing for the team. 
...

Actually, I remember those days.  There were not 150 players on the Alabama team back during the early 60s.  More like 55-60.

Look at the rosters, and count the players if you'd like: Click here for link

Lots of familiar names there for us old guys.

You may be right about some of the other details, but the 1961 team had just 56 players, and 1964 had about the same. 

Of course, freshmen couldn't play with the varsity, so they weren't on travel squads and prolly not included in rosters.

[Catch Prothro]

...
I didn't read the link, but it sounds intentionally misleading.  Certainly a lot of history is missing between that 1961 team and Saban's 2009 team.  And while obviously the game has changed, the players have gotten bigger and more specialized, I don't necessarily follow how the author got there or why he sought to skew history.

For one thing, there were no scholarship limits in those days, and once the substitution rules relaxed in 1964 it was common for coaches like Bryant to stack the roster with talent.  150 player rosters were typical, although schools might only  identify those athletes who lettered as playing for the team. 
...

Actually, I remember those days.  There were not 150 players on the Alabama team back during the early 60s.  More like 55-60.

Look at the rosters, and count the players if you'd like: Click here for link

Lots of familiar names there for us old guys.

You may be right about some of the other details, but the 1961 team had just 56 players, and 1964 had about the same. 

Of course, freshmen couldn't play with the varsity, so they weren't on travel squads and prolly not included in rosters.

I meant that after 1964 the rosters started getting larger, because that was the year substitution rules changed.  The games I saw were in the 70's, where you'll probably find at least 100 players listed.  I was born in 1962, so I can't claim to know much about the 60s teams.      

My point is that roster numbers alone do not lead to specialization (or increased player size), as Bryant's teams in the 70s had more players than Saban's teams today.

[Chechem]

...
My point is that roster numbers alone do not lead to specialization (or increased player size), as Bryant's teams in the 70s had more players than Saban's teams today.

Yes, I think those oft-cited stats about Alabama 'stockpiling players' referred to the early 1970s, not the early 1960s.  As you said, that ended when the rules changed.

Thanks for the info and links.   

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